[17:34] Jeff White: That actually brings up another good point about having big energy. People quickly will say they overreacted or I overreacted to something, when in fact the overreaction is just the reaction of the present circumstance, plus all the other unprocessed circumstances that are thematically the same. And so you have this big energy reaction to unprocessed energy. And that is sort of the big clue for you as an individual to say, I have energy about this topic, and this would be the place where I start digging. The digging of what am I feeling right now, that is first step to know what’s going on for me.
Most of us don’t take the time to pause, to understand what’s really going on. Most of us want to avoid knowing what’s going on. We don’t want to feel so that’s the first step is just to acknowledge what is the feeling going on? And underneath of that, what is the need that I’m not getting here? What is this action I’m about to do? What do I believe is going to get me? And those are the first two steps and really how we help a lot of people.
[18:47] Damianne President: People find so many different approaches to dealing with it, self-medicating, drinking, avoidance behaviors basically. Many of us haven’t learned strategies of what do we do with it when we face those uncomfortable situations,
[19:04] Jeff White: Yes, which brings us back to attaching, bonding. So when I get ungrounded, what are my typical responses? Do I get up and go shopping? Do I open a, another bottle of wine? Do I light up a smoke? Do I get on Amazon and buy a whole bunch of stuff? Do I end up cleaning my house to the nth degree? Do I yell, do I avoid, do I go exercise? And in and of themselves, exercising, you know, having a glass of wine, these things are not the problem. It’s that they become external methods for us to regulate our emotions and calm ourselves down and sooth. And then this ultimately becomes what we bond to. This is why people bond so much to work and then you have workoholism. You have people that bond to retail therapy and they have problems with money because this is how they deal with uncomfortable emotions.
[20:06] Ellen White: Because many of us were not taught how to deal with those emotions and modeled and acceptance, and even an appreciation for being able to connect, it’s actually often the opposite. Oh, don’t feel sad. Be happy, have a chocolate bar, this will cheer you up. Here, look, what can we do to distract. Don’t cry, you know, or, oh, you feel down or sad. Let’s just fix it with something really fast. Let’s get you out of this what feels so uncomfortable for me. Let’s get you out of your negative emotion and move you into something else.
Sometimes as children, we were directly punished. You want to cry, I’ll give you something to cry about. And so we’ve learned Through various different exposures, both from our family and from society at, large that emotions are not something people have liked, particularly what we would label as negative emotion, which really they’re just different forms of expression. And so we’re not comfortable with dealing with those emotions. So then someone comes along and says, well, just tell me how you feel. It’s not always that simple at that point.
One, we may not have a lexicon. Our lexicon is really basic and simple with like five different emotions that we might be able to express. Or if we were punished for exposing our feelings or expressing, someone’s gonna feel quite threatened by that question. What do you mean? What am I feeling? What are you setting me up for? And then you’re like, whoa, or you’re getting really defensive. And you could see where that could escalate really quickly.
[21:38] Jeff White: Because their blueprint is bad stuff is going to happen any second if I start telling about my emotions. And so therefore, no way I’m going to start telling you how I feel. I wouldn’t even acknowledge to myself because from childhood, if bad stuff came, like a threat or abandonment or sent to my room or being hit, I’m not going to bring that because in my memory banks, it says dealing and bringing up and allowing myself to emote equates to bad stuff and bad stuff happening means it’s a threat to my existence, and I’m not going to do that.
[22:16] Ellen White: Think of how many people, you know, who are comfortable crying in front of another human being. Most people apologize profusely for crying. Most people feel so ashamed and embarrassed if they cried and let that out. And so that gives you a little glimpse of the kind of mentality that we host at large about emotions. And not only can we not control our emotions in that way, like they’re created all the time whether we are aware of them or not, but then how can we feel seen and accepted, but rather start to feel a great deal of embarrassment or shame for our own self. And that gets in the way us connecting and our emotions and our relationships.

[22:59] Damianne President: I find this so interesting as well, because what we labeled negative emotions, which are just emotions on the spectrum, we’re conditioned so that it’s uncomfortable for everybody involved. It’s uncomfortable for the person experiencing the emotion and not knowing what to do with it. And it’s uncomfortable for the person who happens to be in that space as well because we need to fix this. And so being able to sit with discomfort, to sit with pain, is not an experience that many of us have accepted as default, as okay even.
[23:35] Jeff White: Yeah, and so one thing we consciously model to our son is allowing emotions to come up. So when we watch a movie and it’s got a sad ending and we’re crying that we all are allowed to cry and it’s important that our son sees adults crying and nothing bad happens. And then we also talk about it, why I’m crying at this movie and what touched me.
And so this culture of pro emotion, pro expression means that in the future, this is the seeds we’re planting here, then the future, when my son is in the presence of another human being who is being emotional, sad, angry, depressed, anxious, anything, he will just say that’s an emotion, and I don’t need to set the defenses., I don’t need to solve it or put it away, so that he isn’t triggered. It becomes almost a non event. He’s allowing everyone else to just emote, that he’s comfortable in the space of the emotional realm.
[24:41] Damianne President: I used to watch Doctor. Quinn medicine woman when I was in high school, university, at some point. I remember there was almost never an episode when I did not cry. And a family member would be like, you know, this is not real, right, like, why are you crying, and then always feeling like I needed to hide to cry, you know, like the surreptitious cleaning of your eyes, pretending that nobody can see you so that nobody’s going to comment on the facts. The connection I’ve made later is that when we suppress what we call negative emotions, there is actually a connection to being able to experience the wide range of emotions, including what we consider to be positive emotions. And so somebody being too jubilant is also discomforting. It can also feel uncomfortable, as much as so-called negative emotions.
[25:40] Jeff White: Yeah. You have a great thing about the, it’s not a filter the filter of, uh, uh, the tap. So Ellen has a great thing to say. She’s going to say it in a minute, but it goes something like this, that when you put up a wall from not feeling bad, it’s not a permeable wall where I’ll only let good emotions out, but I won’t let bad emotions out. Nope, it’s a wall. So when you shut down or shut off feeling negative emotions, you’re shutting all the emotions off. So it means you won’t feel as bad, but you’re also not going to feel as good. And this is the big suppression of all of our emotions.
Whether we’re talking about negative emotions or positive, it makes it difficult for people to understand and connect to what is joy? How do I know what that feels like? I don’t know what passionate excitement is. And they think this euphoric feeling must be joy and passion, and they’re not able to discern what’s going on inside them.
And so you have people that may say, oh, I’m really excited. But for us, we see them as really ungrounded or people that are saying, oh, I’m really fine. Everything’s good. But their energy is just clearly vibing they’re not good. They’re not acknowledging the sadness. And this is the mismatch that when we don’t feel, when we can’t be present and allow ourselves to feel, then we suppress all that.

[27:18] Ellen White: We’ve, we’ve numbed out. I’m going to take over now. Now I remember that analogy. Yes, it’s the one about the wall. To carry on that point that Jeff made for me. Thank you. It’s the whole idea of when we numb out to not feel the pain, we also numb out from our ability to feel the joy. So it would be like living in a black and white world where we numb out color cause there’s not as much contrast sometimes, or we don’t have to deal with the contrast and colors, the variation, the brightness. But then we’re missing out on all the beauty and Technicolor and variations that come with actually allowing ourselves to be more sensitive and attuned and open.
And then if we numb out on our side, what ability then do we have to be attuned to our children? I can’t just numb out on me and then suddenly have all that attunement and diversity in my ability to feel and connect for my child. It doesn’t work that way. And so there’s a big price we pay and an almost like domino, a ripple effect when each of us cope to survive because of something that seems like a simple comment.
I love your story because as you’re crying from the show and you get what feels like a negative job for your tears, you suck them up next time. And then it starts. And then what happens when you get the jab another time or a friend says it to you, and then you’re like, oh, there must be really something to this. I must have an issue. There must be something wrong with me. And we are very quick to blame ourselves, especially as children. In our innocence, we can’t imagine that it could be anyone else outside of us; it must be us. So we become very quick to blame and shame ourselves and take on responsibility for things that really aren’t ours.
[29:06] Jeff White: And this is why when you said sometimes you’re acting out the very behavior that a parent may do that you don’t like. So part of that messaging is we don’t cry. And in the face of seeing another human being cry at a movie might trigger this is the marching orders here. We don’t cry at movies. There’s no crying and therefore anyone who cries is not allowed. I wasn’t allowed; you’re not allowed to cry. And then we propagate this kind of viewpoint of we’re not allowed to emote.
[29:42] Damianne President: I think it’s even more insidious than that because not only are we, like we can’t cry, you can’t cry, but it’s like, if you cry, we’re going to pretend you’re not crying.
[29:50] Ellen White: Or we’re going to punish you for crying.
[29:52] Jeff White: Let’s not invite them because you know, they’re gonna cry or even side comments.
Make sure you bring the tissues if she’s coming along. Oh boy, you know, we gotta wait till the end of the movie. And till she get gathers herself back together, these are all negating messages of abandonment. I’m not allowed to be me. I have to be something else then truly me.

[30:14] Ellen White: So this also forms our view on how we feel about relationships. What is it like to be in relationship? Wow relationships are really wounding? Relationships are hard. I’m not really sure I like people. I think I’ll work with horses or animals because they don’t lie and manipulate; what you see is what you get and I don’t feel faked out or judged by them.
And so attachment theory at the essence is do we feel that people, human beings, do we have one, two, a handful that have our back and really see us and let us be us and are there for us and committed to the exchange and openness of this relationship, or are there conditions, are they abandoning us? Are they coming and going which makes me feel really insecure and unsafe. And so if I can’t depend on human beings, what can I depend on? Well, this drug is always there to make me feel good. I can always count on my drug. And I can always count on a good sale to make me feel good. And you know what, ice cream always makes me feel good. And I found consistency in things because I haven’t found them and that stability in people.