Damianne: [00:00] Thank you for listening to this episode of Changes BIG and small. This is Damianne, your host as we explore what makes change exhilarating. Each week I share research or interview guests to help us make changes in our own lives. Today, I’m speaking with Lanny V Cox. She’s an Asian American gypsy who has lived on three continents. She’s been an archeologist, Waldorf teacher, and worked for a company that shipped large animals around the world. Currently she lives in Thailand teaching English and is working on her second book. You can find her at lanivcox.com and that link will be in the show notes. Welcome, Lani. I’m gonna get right into it. So one of the ways you identify is as a writer. Tell us about that.

Lani: [00:56] Yes. I actually, I’ve been writing since I was a preteen since about 13 years old. It happened when my family moved from beautiful Hawaii, which is where I’m from, to the middle of Death Valley desert in California. And so I went from the lush tropical environment to a really boring desert, not even a pretty desert with lots of cactus and things like that. It was just really bare, hostile environment, very windy. The tumbleweeds blowing by that, just like in the movies and suddenly I was stuck inside. I was without friends. And that’s when I found reading and writing and writing was just my, it’s just a comfort thing, you know, trying to get my feelings out. And I think that’s normal for teenagers, especially girls to start a dear diary at that time.

Damianne: [01:59] How old were you then?

Lani: [02:01] 13 years.

Damianne: [02:04] When I was around that age. I was doing the DIA diary thing and you know, but then you’ve kept writing. What attracted you to continue this journey till now?

Lani: [02:14] That’s a great question. I don’t know. I just enjoyed it. It felt like friends. It felt like a great outlet when I was feeling really…. I wasn’t feeling close to my mom during the teenage years, and I think it was because she grew up in a whole different country, Thailand during a different time. So I didn’t really feel like we had anything in common. And so that was probably just my way of finding some sort of outlet, a creative outlet. And it’s funny, in the sixth grade, when I was still in Hawaii, I was like 11 or 12 years old, our school did an assessment; I think it was statewide. So there was an assessment of, you know, how were the students doing? And one of the things that they assessed us on was writing. And I remember getting back my results and basically it said, Oh, she’s very opinionated. And I remember liking that. And I’m not the kind of person to keep things. I don’t have that sentimental hold, but that was definitely something I kept. I liked my results. I don’t know why. So did you keep writing as well after you did your, your diary during teenage years.

Damianne: [03:44] I write off and on. I started blogging many years ago and every once in a while I let it lapse and then I get back to it. And I’m trying to do journaling. More recently I was inspired by some of my previous podcast guests to get back into journaling just as a way of exploring myself and my thinking. And while I might sometimes want to do it on my blog, because I enjoy sharing things with the world as well, I think there’s also value in writing just for myself and I’m trying to get back to that. Does that make sense?

Lani: [04:18] Yeah. Yeah. I really, I really enjoy it. I guess some people have their different ways of expressing themselves. Some people talk a lot. It’s funny because I find myself listening. As I’ve gotten older, I’m just more and more listening and also probably being a teacher. And you know that whole teacher talk time; make sure you don’t spend too much time talking. It’s not like I’m particularly shy or anything or afraid of my opinion. It’s just I’m fine just listening to other people and then I’ll say what I have to say when I write.

Damianne: [04:55] You asked me that question and so it’s still kind of going through my head. How much do I write and what do I write? I read much more than I write, but I’m also trying to do less consumption and a bit more creation as well. But I kind of find myself to be an patient writer. Sometimes, I think it out in my head, but then when it comes to writing it out, it’s like I’ve already done it and I’m a little bit more impatient than I’d like to be. And so that’s something I’m working on.

Lani: [05:23] I feel like I’m more impatient when it comes to editing. Like I don’t want to have to look at it again. Not that I think that I’m perfect by any stretch of the imagination. It’s just hard. Especially grammar because I was born and raised in America. Americans really are, I don’t know if you’ve noticed this from working with international expats and different people from around the world, but Americans are the worst when it comes to the grammar, cause we’re not really taught it. And if we are, I dunno, something about having to learn your native language. Grammar is just painful because you take it for granted and it’s so intuitive, like you kind of get a feel for the way it should sound, but the way you think it should sound is not always correct.

Damianne: [06:10] Do you teach ESL right now?

Lani: [06:13] Yes.

Damianne: [06:14] And so that’s really something that you have to grapple with often with your students.

Lani: [06:19] Yes, that’s true. And it does depend on, sometimes you get low level and then it’s not really a problem. But yeah, it doesn’t matter. I mean, even with low level students, I remember they will ask you these curve ball questions and you’re like, you know, let me get back to you. Or I will run to another teacher and ask them a question like, I know who’s the best grammar person in every school I’ve taught. And then I run to them and I ask them, I don’t mind interrupting teachers and if they can interrupt me, that’s fine as well. I feel like we had to get used to it, we had to just be flexible. I don’t mind telling students I don’t know; let me get back to you.

Damianne: [07:02] Yeah. I think that’s great modeling because we can learn even when we don’t know. And that happens all through life.

Lani: [07:07] Yes.

Damianne: [07:08] So you wrote and you published the book, The Missing Teacher. What inspired the book?

Lani: [07:16] Well, I actually had a really life-changing, negative experience when I wanted to be a Waldorf teacher. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Waldorf education. Most people are familiar with Montessori.

Damianne: [07:32] I’ve heard of Waldorf, but I don’t know, like I’ve never really studied it or anything because it was kind of peripherally for younger students where I taught more middle school and high school.

Lani: [07:42] Yeah, so Waldorf education. What attracted me to it initially was that it’s considered an art based education, so holistic learning. The students learn music, a foreign language. They also learn to work together as groups in many activities. It’s also a much more, I wouldn’t say physically oriented, but it’s definitely not the kind of education where you’re sitting behind the desk the whole time. They really are encouraged to move around, work as a team. It’s very creative. It’s very creative education, and so I did two years of teacher training. I learned about Rudolf Steiner, who founded the educational program back in what is now Germany. This was around World War I and World War 2, I want to say, and then when I was in a young Waldorf School, I just had a horrible experience. I did everything wrong. All the parents were, not all of them, but a lot of parents were not happy, they were very vocal. It was a private school. So private school parents, I think are much more invested because they are using their hard earned money. So eventually, I was fired and I was absolutely devastated. And it really, it shook me in a lot of ways. You know, for some people, it’s a divorce that changes their life, or maybe they move abroad or there’s a death. And for me, it really was that experience because for the first time, I really wasn’t accepted. Prior to that, I had always had good rapport and marks throughout work, so I’d never experienced just being on the other end where people were gossiping and I was not trusted and I second guessed myself and I was very naive. It took that naive, or naivete, away from me. And school politics, oh boy, it was just such a huge awakening and there was no leadership. Nobody knew what to do about lots of problems that were going on in the school. So after it happened, I just didn’t know what to do. I got out of teaching. I was really lost. I went back home to Hawaii. I tried to go back to school and even contemplated Montessori education, which is very different .

Damianne: [10:14] If you don’t mind my asking, how old were you then when this happened or how many years ago?

Lani: [10:19] Oh, this was lots of years ago. There’s good grammar for you. I was 28, 30, around them and yeah, like one of the criticisms, it’s interesting you bring up the age thing, is that I was considered too young and that because I didn’t have children, I wasn’t fit to teach. So just crazy things like that. And what I came away with was how much I tangled my self worth and identity with my occupation. And I had to kind of not only forgive the people who I felt had wronged me, but also forgive myself for what I felt I had done whether that was correctly or incorrectly, or just the whole mess. So there were these steps and it took a long time. I also have realized that everyone is a teacher. I grew up during a time when it was really popular to say, I’m a student of life. But I felt like, you know, you also teach. You teach your behavior, your actions when you speak, what you say. I mean, we’re definitely teaching all the time, whether we are aware of it or not. You know, like when you cut a queue or you throw a piece of trash out when you think no one’s looking, you know. Those are all actions in which someone is watching. Not like in a creepy way, but …

Damianne: [11:58] People notice what you do.

Lani: [11:59] Right. And it was interesting because I remember I was at a fast food restaurant in Hawaii and there was a dad who interestingly enough was wearing a Waldorf tshirt. Oh, it was so crazy. And he was with his son. And so they had gotten their burger and fries and whatever, and they were supposed to get their soda. And then, all of a sudden, they drop the tray and the soda spilled all over. And the people behind the counter, for some strange reason didn’t notice. I was kind of, you know, just watching this thing, waiting for the dad to like go, okay, go tell them that we made the spill or for him to grab some napkins or something. And he just walked away and I thought, wow, you just taught your son to just walk away from a huge mess. Yeah, I get it. It was an accident, but how hard would it have been to tell someone to grab a mop if you didn’t want to clean it up yourself? So yeah, that was my big takeaway, that we really all are teachers. And even though I felt like the school had taken that title away from me, I still consider myself a teacher, but I didn’t teach for many years. It wasn’t until I moved abroad that I actually decided to try teaching. But you see, I didn’t even do it in the States. I went all the way to Thailand to teach. So that should tell you how much it just drove me nuts.

Damianne: [13:27] Before we get to Thailand, how did you recover from this? I mean, I imagined that it was quite a traumatic, stressful experience for you.

Lani: [13:40] I guess for some people it might seem strange because they don’t identify that much with their job. A lot of people hate their job or can’t wait for retirement, but it wasn’t that way for me. But it definitely took steps. You know, there was the incident where, you know, I watched the father spill the drink and another instance that happened was when I was in a car with a friend, we’re listening to an audio book. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Malcolm Gladwell?

Damianne: [14:11] Yeah, I listened to his podcast.

Lani: [14:14] Okay. He wrote the book Outliers and he was talking about how different people raise their children differently. Now, I know that sounds absurd, but specifically how people with money raise their children differently, people without money. And when I was in Waldorf, I really was a fish out of water. I come from a working class background. My mom worked in the kitchen. She was an immigrant, had to drop out of school when she was about 10 years old because her family was too poor for her too continue her schooling and then she worked in housekeeping for many years after that. And my dad died when I was very young and the man who raised me, he also dropped out of school at a very young age. So these are the people that raised me. And when I was in Waldorf, I was suddenly around people who had a good amount of money. One of Waldorf’s things is you visit the children at home. So I got to see how these people lived. And so back to Malcolm Gladwell. Look, he’s talking about how rich or you know, upper middle class versus poor children, how parents raised their children, and it was just kind of an aha moment, you know? I never felt like the people there treated me differently because of the way I look or anything like that. And people have congratulated me for not playing the race card, but it just really wasn’t about that. But I definitely felt like something wasn’t happening. And I think it was because the children were raised to report every little thing to the parents and challenge authority, and that’s something that Gladwell had talked about as well. Whereas when I was raised, you know, children were definitely seen but not heard, and they didn’t rat out someone else and you didn’t complain and you didn’t really have a lot of choices. And so that whole unraveling illuminated my experience a little bit better. It’s almost like culture. It’s like, you know, when you move to another country and you’re like, why did this happen? I don’t understand.

Damianne: [16:37] You have no context for it initially.

Lani: [16:39] Right? Right. And then you replay the events in your mind, and then after a while you start to think, well, maybe it has to do with different ideas of how things are done in this culture versus another culture. So I think that was a lot of it, just definitely being out of my element and you know, even though they accused me of being young and maybe that was too harsh, I think there was some truth to that. I really am a lot older and wiser now. First, that experience helped me grow up.

Damianne: [17:11] Yeah. It’s interesting because I remember when I was teaching, maybe in India, that was my first international school. I always felt a little bit of I’m the hired help. And not that hired help is a bad role. I mean, we all have our place to play in society, but the hired help in the old style wher. You should not really be seen or heard. You just do your work invisibly in the background. It was a very uncomfortable feeling.

Lani: [17:39] Right. That’s a great way to put it. That’s how I felt because it was, it really was insulting for me to be challenged by not only the parents, which I get to an extent, but that the students were encouraged to be that way as well. I really felt like I didn’t have any respect.

Damianne: [17:59] Exactly, because there are ways to have conversations about things when you disagree, but it’s the lack of respect and value that really gets to me.

Lani: [18:11] It’s interesting. You could just see how people treat waiters in a restaurant or a person at the front desk of a hotel. I’m not saying that teachers are necessarily treated that way, but you definitely can see how some teachers in some instances feel that way, or any profession.

Damianne: [18:34] So you moved to Thailand in 2009. How did you decide on that move?

Lani: [18:42] Well, in 2007, with my partner at the time, we went to Thailand for a holiday and I hadn’t been back in a very long time. I can’t even … 15 years. It’s just been a really long time since I’ve been back, so we went and it was just fun. It was also very special because my mom was also returning. And there were two big events. One was an open house, which is a Thai celebration of when you have a new house, when you buy a house, when you build a new house. And so unbeknownst to me, my mom was sending money to have a house built for her, her father and her sister. So that happened. And also she was also sending money to the local temple. And so in our neighborhood, there was a new temple opening, which is also a really big deal. So we got to be a part of not only the open house but the new temple opening, and it just kind of fueled in me what I had always felt, which was to live and work abroad. I’ve always wanted to have that experience. So it was like, well, why not? Let’s do it. You know? We had a positive experience in Thailand. My mom never taught my brother and I thai. So to me, that was also a way of me trying to learn Thai. I was like, oh, I’ll just go back to Thailand. I’ll go to Thailand and I’ll learn Thai and everything will be fine. It is so hard to learn another language. Especially Thai, because it’s tonal.

Damianne: [20:39] It’s very different.

Lani: [20:40] Very different.

Damianne: [20:41] It’s tonal and it’s a different script and yeah…

Lani: [20:44] Reading and writing, forget it. And grammar [sound of overwhelm]. But I tried; I really tried. I took classes, different schools. I had one on one tutors.

Damianne: [20:57] To this point, how long have you been in Thailand up to this point continuously?

Lani: [21:02] Let’s put it this way. I lived abroad for 10 years, not all in Thailand. I lived about six months in Ecuador and two and a half years in Cambodia.

Damianne: [21:17] Okay. And how is your Thai?

Lani: [21:20] I can get by. It really depends on where I’m at. What’s interesting for example is if I’m in a city that receives a lot of tourists, like Chiang Mai, when I speak Thai, it’s amazing. Oh wow, that’s so wonderful that you’ve learned Thai. But when I’m in the north with my family, northern dialogue is different than the dialect they teach you. And it’s like I’ve learned absolutely nothing.

Damianne: [21:51] One thing I find interesting is the whole concept of home, because I’ve also moved quite a bit and the place that I will settle down and live one day is not the place that I’m currently living and it’s not the place where I was born. Where’s home to you?

Lani: [22:07] I think as long as my mom is in Hawaii, home will be Hawaii. But home is definitely wherever I am, because I’ve moved so much like you, that I’ve learned to adapt and be flexible and to make my home as homey and as comfortable as possible. Because it is challenging when you are in a different country and you’re not used to the amenities that you’re used to. Yeah, you just, you learn to decorate with what you have and you figure out what’s important to you. I think I’ve gotten better at being patient with decorating, wanting everything to be perfect. Plants are huge for me. So as soon as I move into a new place, I try to get as many plants as possible. And that really helps, to have something living and to take care of something in your environment. But once my mom dies, which I hate to think about, I just think, well then what is Hawaii? Hawaii, it’s just the place I was born and raised. That would be no reason to go back there because it’s so expensive. So Hawaii is home for now. What about you?

Damianne: [23:34] When my grandmother was alive, because I lived with her for most of my childhood years, I used to think that Saint Lucia was home. I heard somebody describe it as kind of being a snail and taking your home with you, so you just like carry it on your back. And I kind of feel that way a bit; I feel like home is wherever I don’t have to live in my suitcase. If I can put things away and feel comfortable in my space and not have to answer to anybody, then to me, that’s how I define home now as an adult. But I think the place that’s probably most familiar to me now is Canada. But I, there’s nowhere that really calls my name. So what’s it like being an Asian American or American Asian, whichever one you put first in Bangkok. Oh no, you don’t live in Bangkok. You live in Rangan, is it?

Lani: [24:24] It’s called Rayong.

Damianne: [24:26] Rayong, okay.

Lani: [24:27] That’s okay. It’s not a very popular place to go.

Damianne: [24:31] You look Asian, you speak some Thai, but you wrote about how your mannerisms, the way you walk too quickly or the way you dress might give you away.

Lani: [24:45] Wow, you really do you homework. It’s a little scary. Yeah, being Asian American in Asia, I have other friends too, so they all have their unique stories to tell. But for me, I get looked at a lot, which is strange cause you would think I would blend in. And sometimes I definitely blend in. But you’d be surprised by how many people just stare and my boyfriend doesn’t like it cause he knows that staring in any culture is rude. So sometimes he’ll get upset, but I’m so used to it that it doesn’t bother me. I ignore it. I think they might be trying to figure out who I am cause I don’t look Thai. They can kind of tell that I have some Chinese.

Damianne: [25:30] Something else…

Lani: [25:31] Yeah, it’s just something else going on. Sometimes people are quite shocked when they do speak to me in Thai and .I don’t speak very well. But as more and more Asians travel to Thailand, especially the Chinese, I’m definitely getting more people speaking to me in Chinese or it’s not so much of a shock when they hear me talk.

Damianne: [26:00] Do you find that people treat you differently.

Lani: [26:05] I’ve asked myself that very question a lot because I, especially in the classroom. I don’t know how other teachers are treated except for the times that I’m watching students interact with a Caucasian or European face as opposed to me. I always joke like, Oh, they’re going to get the teacher that looks like them and then they’re going to be like, Uhh. Because they want that Western experience, right. And I don’t look Western until I opened my mouth and they get to know me and then we’re fine. So that’s a great question and I just haven’t been able to answer. I don’t know if I’m treated differently. I think once students get to know me, they see me kind of like as an aunt or a big sister. I flatter myself, but I’m not that young. And I like that. I think there are much more likely to hug me and be affectionate and stuff like that. But it also, you know, I’m also female, right? And I don’t know how it is, but a lot of teachers, especially in Thailand are male, so maybe it has to do with the fact that I’m female more than Asian. I really don’t know.

Damianne: [27:23] In terms of your day to day life. What do you are find that the challenges and opportunities of the life you’ve created for yourself?

Lani: [27:32] Well, it’s nice to live day by day. It’s nice to have freedom as much as you can when you’re in a other country, but at the same time, as I got older, I look at my friends who stayed back in the States. Um, and the stability they have. And maybe that’s an illusion. You know what I mean? Because there’s global warming, there’s crazy government. Um, there’s the pandemic, like things that feel stable are constantly changing or can be taken away at a blink of an eye. So I, I definitely feel vulnerable. Like I don’t have, um, I don’t make a lot of money. I don’t have anything saved way. I don’t have a house, a car, and I rent. So on the one hand, it’s freeing. It’s flexible. It is even maybe, possibly progressive to live this way because I’m not tied to a mortgage. But there’s other people who have some place they can call home. So I think those are the bigger challenges. Maybe that wasn’t exactly the direction of the question, but that’s how I feel right now.

Damianne: [28:55] You can take the question any way you want, of course, but this is resonating with me. The challenge for me, and perhaps you have some of that too, is figuring out what feels right for me and not for what other people say should be right. Do you typically teach at a school and if so, how has that changed with the coronavirus pandemic?

Lani: [29:21] I have been teaching at language schools and unfortunately, I think it’s been about six weeks since Thailand kind of closed everything down and so I I haven’t been teaching, I haven’t been teaching online like other teachers. And it’s frustrating because I asked to do it at the very beginning when everything closed down. I said, let’s do it, I’m willing to do it, but I kind of got the closed door . And perhaps the reason why I did is because people have just had more of a wait and see attitude. I don’t know; I’m not admin, but I did get lucky in nabbing a student who was interested in working online, doing IELTS Test prep so I’ve just been kind of minimally dipping in that pond. So I have been teaching online, but not through the school. And I also helped a friend out. She went back to the States; she had been teaching online. I helped her out with her students a few times. So it’s, it’s been tough. Oh, and the crazy thing is days before the pandemic closed Thailand down, my boyfriend had his appendix removed, and that was crazy. That was such a frightening time because we did not want to go to the hospital with a pandemic going on, but everything worked out. We got it out, we got it done, but it took, you know, we took a financial hit. That was unexpected. Even though we have insurance, it didn’t cover as much as we’d hoped, but luckily we got everything figured out and he came home and he’s fully recovered. I’m with the people who are waiting to go back to work. And I’m also afraid of what the school numbers are gonna look like once they do open the doors. Who’s going to come back to school? Who’s going to want to wait? So I’m really trying not to think too far in the future because it’s out of my control. There’s nothing I can do.

Damianne: [31:47] Yeah. I guess that’s one of the most challenging things about this time. It’s difficult to even plan because we don’t know what exactly we’re planning for in terms of timelines or changes or mutations. There are just so many unknown variables that, yeah, I get frustrated sometimes and I’m like governments or whatever, you’re in charge, tell me what’s going on. But at the same time, I’m like, probably if you told me what’s going on, I wouldn’t really trust you cause how could you possibly know?

Lani: [32:16] Yeah. Well, just like you, I mean you mentioned before having to change travel plans. I find myself in the same boat cause I was supposed to go back to Hawaii and we’re supposed to see my brother and have a big family reunion and I’m just like, I just don’t think this is going to happen. Even if I wanted to brave it, the more I thought about it, the more I thought I could get stuck somewhere in transit. They want you to quarantine for 14 days. I’m not going to be anywhere that long. What if a flight gets canceled? Then you get stuck somewhere. And then I was just looking at some of the literature from the airline they had sent me about trying to seat people apart if possible, spraying down the planes with, you know, not disinfectant, what’s the word I’m looking for, some sort of air purifying thing. And just so much stuff that you’re taking your temperature, being at the airport four hours in advance. I’m just like, this is not worth it. I can’t, I can’t put myself through this, especially with a long flight on top of it.

Damianne: [33:34] Yeah. Right now you’re working on your memoir. And are you finished writing it, did I read that correctly, and getting into the editing stage?

Lani: [33:44] I am editing it and I’m having an editor look at it and I’m also questioning what I’ve written through the whole process, but I think I’ve finally figured it out, which is I want my message of my memoir to be. Fitting in is overrated.

Damianne: [34:05] That’s a great message and it’s something that’s come up a few times in other episodes where people have found that there is a cost to fitting in and at some point it’s not a price that they want to pay anymore. You’ve gone on a journey of change and growth and you’re working on acceptance, which really resonates with the theme of the memoir that you’ve just shared. Do you have any recommendations for listeners related to change or acceptance.

Lani: [34:33] I would say if I was to talk to my younger self or anybody else, don’t take yourself too seriously. It’s good to remember that when you travel, when you’re in relationships, cause we have a tendency to kind of really dig down and go, but I’m right. I’m right. I think you have to kind of sacrifice a bit of that feeling for peace of mind, peace in a relationship, peace with whatever’s happening to you at the moment. And so don’t take things too seriously, relax, and I don’t know have fun. Life is short. Try to find times to laugh every day.

Damianne: [35:25] I like that. I’ve been trying to work on finding opportunities for awe more regularly because I think that I’ve become a little bit jaded like, Oh, I’ve already seen this, or this is just the same thing again. And just stopping and being more appreciative of the things that I see, realizing that there is sometimes newness, even in sameness.

Lani: [35:48] Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good way to put it.

Damianne: [35:51] How can people connect with you and follow you?

Lani: [35:55] They can go to my blog, which is my name l, a, n, i, v, as in Victor, but that’s not my middle name, c, o, x.com I always said V as in Victor, I should … V as in Violet. I don’t know. I have to thinkof a better one.

Damianne: [36:16] Do you have any recommendations, anything that you’re taking pleasure in right now?

Lani: [36:21] Well, I think the people who are doing a little bit better during this time are people that had a routine in place and also focus a lot on self development. So I think it’s a great time to find something that resonates with you, whether it be Zen Buddhism, Christianity, or stoicism is really popular these days. I think stoicism and Buddhism have a lot in common, or Zen Buddhism, just being in the moment, letting go. I really like Tim Ferriss’s podcast. I think he’s really big on self-development. And he just had Jane Goodall on his podcast, which I can’t wait to listen to. Just recently he also had Brene Brown. She’s also wonderful. He also has free resources for stoicism, which people might find interesting cause I’ve, I’ve found it really helpful.

Damianne: [37:23] And for people who are fans of Tim Ferriss, he recently appeared on the Recode decode podcast with Kara Swisher, and he shares some of his advice for staying sane in this time and a lot of things that he’s shared on his own podcast, but there are some other ideas as well from a different perspective with Kara Swisher. So it could be interesting for listeners if you’re a fan of Tim Ferris. Thank you so much, Lani, for taking time to chat with me today. I could go on, but all good things come to one end. Thank you so much.

Lani: [38:05] Yeah, thanks for finding me and asking me. You’re great. Thank you.

Damianne: [38:15] This is the second in a series of episodes where I will be interviewing people to find out what their experience is during the time of the current coronavirus pandemic. I hope that you enjoyed listening to this episode with Lani. Please share this episode or any of the past ones that you enjoyed with a friend or family member. You can connect with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and access show notes for this episode and all other episodes at changesbigandsmall.com. Have a great week.